This picture was posted on their web page and the discussion was about how the Bible can not be taken literally and how Christians back out in debates.
Lorele Featherstone Taylor, I recently confronted a coworker about this. He is a believer, and he told me that the passages which promote slavery, misogyny, sexism, child abuse, etc. were ones that shouldn’t be taken literally. I asked him, “If it’s supposed to be the word of god, then it is all supposed to be taken literally. If you don’t take one passage literally, what makes the others valid?” He told me that the book was written by man, so it is prone to error. I looked at him and said, “Then you concede it is not the word of god, but of man.” He had nothing to say. They never do after that.
Connor King The people who wrote the bible also said that the earth was flat….
Fred Fricks Gods were created as an explanation for natural phenomena that early man couldn’t understand. When the human mind became more aware (as man, mentally left infancy and became a toddler) someone realized that this could be used to help man coexist with one another. As man became the child (to date), man manipulated the idea to control others. So what you have is Santa god….when man moves from childhood to its teen age, much like Santa, man may realize the deception.
Larry Marshall I doubt that it will change anyones mind, but following link will explain something about what you folks talk about literal/ not literal verses of the Bible. http://creation.com/waves-of-sadness
Roy Marshall Well, it is long boring and states the exact same thing you pass off all the time Larry, believe because the bible says so. If the facts don’t fit precisely, believe because we want the bible to say so. Faith is blind, for both of us.
Larry Marshall That’s why I said it probably won’t change anyones mind. You believe in your “force’ because you believe others have the same beliefs. And if the facts don’t fit you nit pick them so that “all is right” in your world. As I’ve written before: Atheism vs. theism is sometimes misrepresented as ‘science’ vs. ‘faith’. This is untrue because evolution is a worldview that is also based on faith. In fact, evolutionists and creationists have the exact same scientific facts to examine. There isn’t a scientific observation that a creationist would disagree with an evolutionist about. Creationists disagree with evolutionists conclusions because we do not agree with their starting presuppositions.
The real difference is that of the world history that each group believes in, by faith. Why by faith? Because we cannot travel back in time to see the first life form evolve or observe God create the universe. So our understanding of what happened in the past is ultimately accepted by faith. We can use scientific methods to observe evidence in the present, and then make an assessment of which history is best supported by that evidence.
Roy Marshall Hmmm, then why do you insist that the site will explain what we folks talk about? I think that a thousand folks will talk about something and pretty much there will be a thousand differing concepts. Even within the community of those professing to beleive in creationism there are differing viewpoints. It is all, and always has been, personally interpretive. Unlike your insistence that because atheism is rampant and the cause of the breakdown in societal values. People of faith, and atheists alike are responsible for the breakdown of society if they refuse to teach their children moral values. My son is a moral man, and godless in the eyes of people like you. However he has more, and higher moral standards than most any person I know. I don’t believe in any “force” I believe, as I tried to explain to you on several occasions, in a concept that expresses morality and the good of mankind above all else. And it is done with logic and comprehensive ideals that do more than give half vague references to fables told thousands of years ago and of which you are required to believe as the gospel no matter how inappropriate and rididulous.
I am an Atheist When a religion has arbitrary rules, of course it will seem like atheists have less morals. We don’t consider heterosexuality a “moral”, for instance. The bible states a lot of “immoral” behavior that even some of the most devout Christians don’t follow. Atheists like me wait for the day that everyone realizes all we really need to know is to be good to each other: don’t impede on anyone’s happiness when you can avoid it, take good care of yourself and your dependents, help others when you can. – KZL
Larry Marshall Ahh… Nirvana- I’ve been seeking it since 1968 when I graduated from high school. Substitute the word Christian for the first word “Atheists like me wait for the day that everyone realizes all we really need to know is to be good to each other: don’t impede on anyone’s happiness when you can avoid it, take good care of yourself and your dependents, help others when you can.” and you will see we are not that much different. Unfortunately people aren’t- both believers and non-believers. The ancient Greeks used to meet as their Senate every two years and could only propose I believe it was 100 new laws- and each had to be based upon an underlying moral principle. Most countries have gotten beyond that unfortunately and most laws are to improve someones stature in society. As a Christian I have a reason for our fall from grace and way of atonement to attempt to get it right when I fail. If the Bible states it is an “immoral” behavior then you are right, Christians ought not to be doing it- doesn’t mean that they won’t. And Roy, you keep saying I reference fables thousands of years old. I reference historical facts and they are not inappropriate or ridiculous if you believe. What I find strange is you believe in the sayings a man who was hypnotized as he prophesised and these fundamental Hindu beliefs include: the authority of the Vedas (the oldest Indian sacred texts) and the Brahmans (priests); the existence of an enduring soul that transmigrates from one body to another at death (reincarnation); and the law of karma that determines one’s destiny both in this life and the next. Which were written almost as many thousands of years ago as my spiritual beliefs- the Bible.
Larry Marshall Ms Conner King – the Bible has never stated or implied that the earth was flat.
Roy Marshall Fables are stories that generally tell a tale with a moral purpose. Biblical stories are facts, only if you have the desire to believe them as such. I believe in a system of explanations based on concepts derived from writings that go back two thousand years before Christ, writings from prophets that claim to have been given information directly from god, and yes, readings about the universe from a man in a trance and communing with the communal consciousness. And with no personal agenda to make money or control anyone. The thing is, it makes sense, and my beliefs are mine, and they control my actions yesterday, today, and every day forward. The biblical life you choose to live is full of inconsistency, your life is full of sin (according to your bible)
Larry Marshall Sorry Roy, my life is not full of sin that is a basic misunderstanding some atheists have. However, I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of God. He sent His only begotten Son as an atonement for our sins and we are to try to live our lives according to the scriptures and to avoid any further sin once we have established a personal relationship with Him. I find no more inconsistencies in my life than in any others. Like you said, my beliefs are mine and they now control my actions.
I have trouble with accepting the ravings of lunatic as anything other than that. From your favorite definitive website wikipedia: collective conscience In general, it does not refer to the specifically moral conscience, but to a shared understanding of social norms (Thomas E. Wren, Conceptions of Culture: What Multicultural Educators Need to Know, p. 64). Society is made up of various collective groups, such as the family, community, organizations, regions, nations which as Burns and Egdahl state “can be considered to possess agential capabilities: to think, judge, decide, act, reform; to conceptualize self and others as well as self’s actions and interactions; and to reflect.” (Burns, T.R. Engdahl, E. (1998) The Social Construction of Consciousness. Part 1: Collective Consciousness and its Socio-Cultural Foundations, Journal of Consciousness Studies, 5 (1) p 77.).
If an individual thinks something is moral/immoral, that is not objective (that is, it is subjective).
However, if a group of people think something is moral/immoral, then it is now an objective moral standard. This all depends on your raft of stipulative definitions/assumptions that you and others must make.
So, let’s test this materialistic basis for moral absolutes with a real world scenario:
If one person thinks it is OK to eat other people (e.g. Jeffrey Dahmer), then that is just his subjective opinion. However, if a tribe of people in Papua decide that it is moral to kill and eat other people (as they have done in the past), then the same behaviour is now ‘moral’? Hmmm … an objective moral standard?
I am an Atheist The definition of “sin” is much broader by Christian values, though. I’ve found that the closer one tries to adhere to the old school values, the more insane they appear to be (take WBC). If one wants to live as though a good man died for them, sure… in my case, coming from a very military family, I live with the knowledge and sentiment of all the men that died for my country, regardless of who’s running it. I also define “being good to each other” as not denying equality to anyone.. women, gays, different races, etc. There are Christians and other religious people who fully believe that as well (and I’m friends/family with many). Personally, I can coexist perfectly with irrefutable beliefs (really only the irrefutable ones), as I can recognize which ones are irrefutable, as long as they aren’t shunning others for their own harmless traits or choices. – KZL
Larry Marshall And that is how to help heal the nation, so many of various blogs are about spreading hate, and calling people names and degrading beliefs. As long as we can both maintain our beliefs and respect the others and be able to discuss various issues then progress will occur. I have been very impressed with this site and you monitoring of the posting- please keep up the good work and encourage others.
Roy Marshall Larry, sin, yeah, your life is full. I don’t know personally about yourself, but your son, your daughter and step daughter should be put to death. Deuterotomy 22:20 But then you are committing adultery yourself, Mark, 10:11. Sad but again, you should be put to death, I have seen you working on a Sunday before. Exodus 31:14. But then again, I have also heard you say a few unkind words about your father, so again, you need to be put to death. Exodus 21:17. As I recall, you had a vasectomy, you should not EVER be allowed into a church to begin with, Deuterotomy 23:1. But then you do trim your hair and beard, so that sin is there for you to follow the word of god at Leviticus 19:27. Not your fault, but don’t you have a smallpox vaccine scar, a mortal sin, Levitics 19:28. And then the big ones, I have seen you eat shrimp, a mortal sin, Leviticus 10:11 and ribs as well, Leviticus 11:7. These are your sins Larry, not mine. These are all well documented in your bible. Just because I believe in what could be termed a “collective conscious” does not mean that it is what some person defines in his specific way. It is more than that, and less. It is, the communal mind of existence, of all beings, of all life. It is god, and it isn’t. Without the background understanding of what you ridicule as the rantings of a man in a trance, you could not ever, nor could anyone else, understand the concept. As I have stated before, my beliefs make perfect sense, I can eat pork if I desire, and have sex with women that find me interesting without having to marry them. And I can tell people the truth about my father and not worry about spending my eternity in some philosophical hell.
Larry Marshall I don’t care to know or understand what someone says when they are in a trance. Timothy Leary was as much of a guru as I could stand- all he wanted was peace, love, understanding also. Your statements above come from not understanding the Bible – the same as I chose to not understand your yedis or whatever your “communal mind of existence” depends on. Me I prefer to think that my mind is my own and not controlled by the group thoughts of others. To help you understand the Old Testament: .Note that the term ‘law’ has several meanings in the Bible. It can refer to the revealed will of God with respect to human conduct. It can refer to the law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, which were the terms of God’s covenant relationship with His chosen people, Israel (Exodus 34:27–28; Deuteronomy 9:9-11), along with the Levitical ceremonial legislation, laws of the priesthood, and laws of purity. This covenant ended with the coming of Christ and the establishment of the New Covenant of grace under which the Christian has imparted to him all the grace he could ever need (Romans 5:1; 8:1; Colossians 2:10). In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul tells us that the law was given to reveal the sinfulness of sin (Romans 5:13; 7:7), to show the holiness of God (Romans 7:12), and to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). The law served to prepare those under it for the coming of Christ. .The Bible teaches that Christian believers are not under the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13; Romans 7:4; Ephesians 2:14ff). This does not mean that the Ten Commandments have no relevance today. They instruct us as to what the will of the Lord is, but are not precepts that we are to try to keep in order to become righteous. A society which repudiates them quickly sinks into moral degradation and anarchy. Christians have received the adoption of sons, and with that adoption comes the mind of the Spirit (Galatians 4:5ff), through whom we produce the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22ff; Ephesians 5:9). God cannot forgive sin merely because someone repents, because sin carries the death penalty. Being perfectly just, God can forgive only when this penalty is first paid. The Christian Gospel is that the Lord Jesus paid the repentant sinner’s penalty when He died upon the cross. The resurrection is God’s affirmation of this (1 Corinthians 15:1–4). And I have the conviction and certainty that I will spend eternity in Heaven.
Roy Marshall Wow, again, a religion that changes its rules depending on what one wants to interpret for any given situation is not a way of life, it is a way to designate what you want and justify it with religious rhetoric. But then again, your bible has been rewritten so many times by so many people with their own personal agenda it is hard to determine what is right and what is the word of the prophet turned deity. I’m sorry you are so closed minded as to disallow any viewpoint that differs from the tangled web that is what you believe. On the other hand, I’ve been there, been to Catholic church, Baptist services, Lutheran ministries, prayed with those believing in the word of latter day saints, taken Deeksha, and communed with those that believe in the teachings of the Bab. And what I believe in now, is what makes sense, There is no one controlling anyone’s mind in the comunal conscious, but if you believe in the power of prayer, then therein lies the explanation for why it works. It’s not for everyone, most people see as you, a lunatic. Why delve into it further, your bible tells you that no other prophet can possibly exist, and rather than think about life and try to understand things that take an effort to read, it is easier to go to church and let the wisdom of 1800 year old fables suited to a lifestyle of peasants using actual iron tools to make wheels and plow a field one row at a time. Life, and our ability to think and understand complex intellectual concepts has evolved (oops, there is that word you don’t like) quite a bit since the first people decided that diffusing religious concepts was easier than working for a living. that part still goes on, but those that still think the same, well, deserve it.
Roy Marshall sorry desiminating not diffusing
Larry Marshall OK Roy, tell me something new, something insightful, something that will pacify my mind and allow be to believe that everything will be all right with the world. Draw upon your vast intellect, your insight into the writings of those that went before you. Wait a minute…. your mental and cognitive skills have “evolved” substantially since those pages were written and trances copied down. So why would you rely on them for understanding since it must be, by your own definition, nowhere near your current knowledge.
Let’s see if we can get a basic understanding for you. I have become and am now a religious person. I do not believe in or participate in any organized religion. My faith (shared by hundreds of millions of others) is based upon a book, the Bible, that is the inerrant word of the one and only living God. The Bible has been analyzed by many more highly intelligent and knowledgeable people than me. The consensus of these people and institutions have given me the assurance that I can stand by my faith.
Hinduism is based on “the accumulated treasury of spiritual laws discovered by different persons in different times”. The scriptures were transmitted orally in verse form to aid memorization, for many centuries before they were written down. Over many centuries, sages refined the teachings and expanded the canon. In post-Vedic and current Hindu belief, most Hindu scriptures are not typically interpreted literally. More importance is attached to the ethics and metaphorical meanings derived from them.
The above from Wikipedia! And you have the balls to say the same thing about the Bible in a condescending manner. Yes the Bible was written by many individuals at different times in several languages and often times passed by memory from scribes who dedicated their lives to remember chapter and verse of the Bible. But we have a massive amount of other information to support what is written in the Bible. And I love this “Hindu scriptures are not typically interpreted literally.” So you believe the sayings because someone else says that is what you should believe because that is what they believe it says. And the “metaphorical meanings” which means figurative, symbolic, allegorical which is the use of events and characters as symbols. Fairy tales in other words. OK to each his own.
You state “a religion that changes its rules depending on what one wants to interpret for any given situation” which is a common attack by the non-religious. Apparently, no amount of debate, discussion or dialogue will convince the non-religious that is not the case. We can logical explain any point or question that is brought up, but because we have an answer that does not violate what it is we believe in, the non-religious discount and dismiss that answer. Not because it is wrong, but because they choose to not understand the basis of our beliefs.
I can prove through a large amount of archeological, astrophysics, paleontology, biological, etc, that we live in a young-age world approximately 6,500 years old. But you won’t believe my interpretation of the facts. But I’m currently researching e=mc2 and the difficulty of generating native-like folds in polypeptide chains. Evillutionists have stated they have created some which proves that mtRNA can produce DNA and all of the necessary structural parts to allow a simple cell to self-reproduce. The incredible errors in assumptions and techniques used will be the subject of a 3 or 4 part series on my blog.
Roy Marshall It’s as though you don’t even think about what you write as you write it. It is just done by rote. Sorry, I truly am, but you will never see what drives my belief in being the most model citizen possible. I’m not Hindu, I’m not Catholic, I’m not Mormon, I’m not B’Hai, and I’m not a fundamental Christian. I don’t see things your way because when asked a question about the world around me, I don’t just give the answer -because the bible says so – I’ve looked at your reference sites before and that is what their answer comes down to. You can’t disguise blind faith with 30 cent words and religious rhetoric. We will never see eye to eye, and even less likely, as peers. As you believe in what you consider to be an unassailable version of the universe, then all others are beneath you. Me, I have achieved something that you never can, oneness. And I recognize my fellow citizens traveling on this plane of existence, and accept them. I don’t always like them, but I understand the role that each and every individual plays on this planet, and what occurs once we leave. I hope for your sake that you are right in your beliefs and that they give you the understanding that mine give me.”
Julie Ann Ozon who made this bible again?
Nicky Longly A very clever guy who knew that fiction on a grand scale would be a bestseller…
I am an Atheist Like L. Ron Hubbard. – KZL